Like the title states looking for E2EE apps (Android and iOS) without going into much details or needs to be robust enough and easy to use for anyone and stable for operations that are susceptible to constant electronic warfare. I did some research and thought about replacing Signal with Molly and wondering if it will still work if Signal leaves the EU, but am also worried about its updates to patch vulnerabilities in a timely manner. I appreciate the help I am a “Jack of all trades and master of none” when it comes to these types of programs, but am also the go to currently in my unit since I am somewhat knowledgeable about exploits and attacks that can compromise systems would be great if there was an desktop as well (like Signal) and would also be nice if it was FOSS and auditable ( I know that’s kind of redundant ) I know it’s a tall order to ask but figured I would try. I really appreciate the help so much and hope I did things by the rules here and don’t get flamed if this has already been covered ( I searched but my skills with searching the fediverse is low. ( Going to ask in the other privacy community as well but am not spamming)
What about session? It appears to connect to a peer-to-peer network and use onion routing in order to send and receive messages, does not require any kind of identification like a phone number, etc.
I am not an expert, but chat control and interoperable protocols are two different things, aren’t they? With stopping chat control you wouldn’t stop the law that’s restricting signal’s e2e-problem.
Edit: As far as I can tell after searching a bit, interoperable protocols will be requiered by the DMA, but only for plattforms. So you seem to be right, that chat control will be the big jeopardy for smaller ones like signal.
Chatcontrol, the mass surveillance law, leads to the breaking of end-to-end encryption. Signal would have to follow this.
The Digital Markets Act, enforces the interoperability of major messengers with other messengers. Signal does not have to follow this because it is not a “Gatekeeper.”
I have little to comment on regarding the motivation for your post – I am not up to date with what’s happening in the EU – but, for an encrypted messaging-app alternative to Signal, I can recommend Matrix.
I think Signal won’t leave unless they have to (have to meaning if the only alternative to leaving is to undermine user privacy/security which they will not do)
And if Signal has no other alternative than I can’t see how every other e2ee messenger wouldn’t also face the same difficult choice.
Edit: also what does exiting the EU actually mean? Like what would prevent you from just continuing to use the app?
Another problem with phone number requirement. EU phone number? Get out of here. Otherwise you’re right. With a vpn, what’s to stop you from continuing to use it.
Why would Signal stop accepting European phone numbers? It’s not like they want to leave the EU, they can just continue offering their services to EU users, but they can’t have servers or offices or any legal entities in the EU if they get banned. That’s not such a problem, you can access Signal over the internet from anywhere in the world, and if EU states start blocking Signal, you can still use Signal TLS proxies, good old VPNs or Tor.
Edit: Signal is also banned in Iran, but they of course accept Iranian phone numbers, as they don’t impose the ban, the Iranian government does. You don’t really have to worry about this, I’m sure Signal will do everything in their power to continue to operate, even in jurisdictions in which it’s banned.
I really can’t believe that chat control will come. But also I was wrong before and strange things happen…
So there are applications that can’t really be considert providers of chat services.
Like: Deltachat, Element, Conversations or Silence.
Which use the protocol’s Email, Matrix, XMPP, SMS for which there are numerous providers.
Therefore allowing you to simply send E2E messages without the provider having any influence.
Based on privacyguides suggestion page itself, SimpleX chat would be the next in line you can try.
Briar is only for Android AFAIK. Matrix/Element does offer E2EE chat/vid but, based on the page, it’s not recommended for long term sensitive use.
Regardless, with the current situation against encryption, any app that stays will be subject to similar conundrum about leaving/abiding the law like Signal. The ones abiding may need more scrutiny, of course.
I’m quoting the page that I linked from privacyguides warning
These messengers do not have Forward Secrecy, and while they fulfill certain needs that our previous recommendations may not, we do not recommend them for long-term or sensitive communications. Any key compromise among message recipients would affect the confidentiality of all past communications.
Briar can be distributed from device to device via a direct download and works without relying on a central server. You can even chat without access to the internet via bluetooth or external storage. I don’t think getting rid of Briar is going to work… ;) What I’m trying to say is that Briar was also made with laws like these in mind, and it will be able to continue existing even if Briar would be forced to somehow disable downloads from the eu.
Briar is probably the best bet if we want something that works despite any governmental effort to break encrypted messaging.
I never really used it (I don’t have anyone around it interested to try it with me :'( ) but I would be interested to hear more about it if anyone has experience with it.
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Can’t we just sideload Signal?
What about session? It appears to connect to a peer-to-peer network and use onion routing in order to send and receive messages, does not require any kind of identification like a phone number, etc.
If your key is exposed, all of your messages will be too, hence why privacy guides doesn’t recommend it
You do have a good point, but from what I understand anyway, they would only get messages from the previous 14 days, but nothing before then.
Threema is a solid option. They’re not from the EU and they’ve been around for long enough to have built a solid foundation of privacy-aware users.
Signal isn’t from the EU either, so why would different rules apply to it than to Threema
contact your representative! https://stopchatcontrol.eu/
I am not an expert, but chat control and interoperable protocols are two different things, aren’t they? With stopping chat control you wouldn’t stop the law that’s restricting signal’s e2e-problem.
Edit: As far as I can tell after searching a bit, interoperable protocols will be requiered by the DMA, but only for plattforms. So you seem to be right, that chat control will be the big jeopardy for smaller ones like signal.
@nutshell7827
Chatcontrol, the mass surveillance law, leads to the breaking of end-to-end encryption. Signal would have to follow this.
The Digital Markets Act, enforces the interoperability of major messengers with other messengers. Signal does not have to follow this because it is not a “Gatekeeper.”
@poddus
Thank you!
I have little to comment on regarding the motivation for your post – I am not up to date with what’s happening in the EU – but, for an encrypted messaging-app alternative to Signal, I can recommend Matrix.
Seems like these laws just create space and high motivation for the next security innovations which will be even harder to break.
XMPP ? Via Conversations app.
I think Signal won’t leave unless they have to (have to meaning if the only alternative to leaving is to undermine user privacy/security which they will not do)
And if Signal has no other alternative than I can’t see how every other e2ee messenger wouldn’t also face the same difficult choice.
Edit: also what does exiting the EU actually mean? Like what would prevent you from just continuing to use the app?
Another problem with phone number requirement. EU phone number? Get out of here. Otherwise you’re right. With a vpn, what’s to stop you from continuing to use it.
Why would Signal stop accepting European phone numbers? It’s not like they want to leave the EU, they can just continue offering their services to EU users, but they can’t have servers or offices or any legal entities in the EU if they get banned. That’s not such a problem, you can access Signal over the internet from anywhere in the world, and if EU states start blocking Signal, you can still use Signal TLS proxies, good old VPNs or Tor. Edit: Signal is also banned in Iran, but they of course accept Iranian phone numbers, as they don’t impose the ban, the Iranian government does. You don’t really have to worry about this, I’m sure Signal will do everything in their power to continue to operate, even in jurisdictions in which it’s banned.
Thank you for your reply. It’s in regards to https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/chat-control-2-0-eu-governments-set-to-approve-the-end-of-private-messaging-and-secure-encryption/, but maybe I’m being an alarmist?
I really can’t believe that chat control will come. But also I was wrong before and strange things happen… So there are applications that can’t really be considert providers of chat services. Like: Deltachat, Element, Conversations or Silence. Which use the protocol’s Email, Matrix, XMPP, SMS for which there are numerous providers. Therefore allowing you to simply send E2E messages without the provider having any influence.
Based on privacyguides suggestion page itself, SimpleX chat would be the next in line you can try.
Briar is only for Android AFAIK. Matrix/Element does offer E2EE chat/vid but, based on the page, it’s not recommended for long term sensitive use.
Regardless, with the current situation against encryption, any app that stays will be subject to similar conundrum about leaving/abiding the law like Signal. The ones abiding may need more scrutiny, of course.
Can you elaborate about Element/Matrix?
I’m quoting the page that I linked from privacyguides warning
Briar can be distributed from device to device via a direct download and works without relying on a central server. You can even chat without access to the internet via bluetooth or external storage. I don’t think getting rid of Briar is going to work… ;) What I’m trying to say is that Briar was also made with laws like these in mind, and it will be able to continue existing even if Briar would be forced to somehow disable downloads from the eu.
Briar is probably the best bet if we want something that works despite any governmental effort to break encrypted messaging.
I never really used it (I don’t have anyone around it interested to try it with me :'( ) but I would be interested to hear more about it if anyone has experience with it.
Thank you I was kind of afraid of that.