Does anyone know about the legality of removing the built-in sim cards from your car, specifically in Australia?
I don’t intend on using any car smart-features when I get one. For context, I’ve never owned a car. When I do get one though, I intend to remove the sim card to prevent the car’s location from being constantly tracked. All I care about in terms a cars functionality is a radio, a CD drive (Yes, I use CD’s), and Bluetooth audio, so I don’t think removing the sim card should affect this much, if at all. Any knowledge and advice would be appreciated, thankyou!
Update: What I was referring to is an eSim, which appears not to be in the form of a physical card. Even so, if possible, I would like to disable the functionality of this eSim assuming the car I purchase has one in-built. From my research, I cannot find anything that explicitly forbids disabling or removing Sims.
the modem or mobile router in the car is what can be tracked by telcos via IMEI pings with or without an ESIM. telematics units can be disabled by pulling fuses and you should also call to opt out with most car manufacturers.
It means you would have no maps, no driver assist, no Internet radio
Anyway if you buy a car it is yours. The worst you can do is break the contact for whatever services are provided by the connectivity. You are allowed to modify a car however you like
Tesla don’t support CD. You’d need to rip those to mp3 and keep them on your phone to play over Bluetooth
I’m pretty sure that’s not the case. Like, even if we are not taking about adding a badly welded 4 wheel attachment without the use of a trailer hook, the car will have to go through technical inspection every few years.
If the inspectirs deem that a non-functional such system is a problem, you’ll not be driving your car anywhere.
If your modification makes it unroadworthy, you might not be allowed to drive it on public roads
If your modification changes its structure you may need certification that it is still roadworthy
I’m not seeing a case where you’re restricted by law from modifying the car
Software has special legal protections. You can stop it working with impunity, you can break it with impunity, you cannot legally defeat security on the software. Corey Doctorow calls the software protections “felony contempt of business model”
When you do finally drive, you’ll find that having a GPS and such is awesome.
If you’re paranoid to that extent, you’re better off getting an old car honestly. But trust me, nobody cares about tracking your car, and there are so many licence plate readers here in Australia you’re not really anonymous anyway
This is just the usual “nothing to hide” handwaving argument.
This data is not used by some theoretical policeman to laugh at how bad you drive, it is part of commercial datamining present in virtually all devices and services you use.
GPS and such? Great that I have a smartphone that I trust more, and have more control over, than this big blackbox with no access whatsoever.
I know how helpful GPS is. Also, I am not paranoid, and you shouldn’t be making those kinds of assumptions about anyone you don’t know. I simply want to minimize private data being open for abuse and am exploring what can and can’t be done, and their benefits and disadvantages. This after all, is the privacy community you’re talking in; where you share advice and knowledge about enhancing ones privacy, not telling them they are paranoid for pursuing it.
I think OP is referring to the whole “connected cars” thing, which isn’t the same as GPS. Many cars nowadays have mobile data capabilities on and are, unbeknownst to the owner, sending all sorts of information to the car makers.
This isn’t just governments and government contractors collecting data for road use and tolling. It’s for-profit companies harvesting consumer data for their own purpose. OP is right to be paranoid.
Or if the fuses apply to too broad of a system, the wireless modem should be able to be disconnected.
Manufacturers like to implement this capability using modules which can be used across their lines of vehicles. Here’s an example for a 2017 Silverado, but you’d want to research service manuals / diagrams for the vehicle you’re considering buying: https://www.silveradosierra.com/threads/2017-silverado-removed-lte-modem.660593/
Unfortunately, any mobile data component likely to be integrated with something more integral to the car, like the entire entertainment/climate control interface, or something equally difficult/impossible to drive without.
Airplane mode - callers can leave a message.
VoIP - it’s connected via wifi or mobile data. I’m in Canada but the three times I checked where my IP says I am, it was in UK or NL.
Of course there are alternative OSs for androids.
Also there’s many more settings on a phone to disable share your location for most uses vs on a car where it seems like your location goes straight to insurance companies.
Not necessarily true. Don’t let perfection be the enemy of good enough. Limiting the number of organizations that have your data is a good thing. There’s no reason the car vendor needs that data
Consider the possibility that they are selling the data collected from you for a profit and using part of those profits to pay for the cellular service.
The telemetry from your car has value, plus if they control your infotainment system they can constantly try to upsell you to subscribe or buy other features.
Not to mention when we’re talking about on a car manufacturer, they can negotiate fleet-wide data access for all the vehicles. With an agreement with the manufacturer that if the user actually buys data access for themselves, they split the profit with the carrier
Not all new cars. But some. Whenever you get a vehicle, it’s probably a good idea to buy one of those aftermarket service manuals sold to car mechanics for your make and model. Then you can verify radio repair etc etc and what circuits to take out etc
Besides if you’re trying to do information upsell, you don’t want your customer to have to go to a cell phone store and buy a SIM card and put it in the car. That’s extra friction they might change their mind. You want it to be always on and available, so they can just consent and get into the funnel
Thanks, I didn’t know the eSims weren’t physical cards.
Btw, 3G network is shutting down extremely soon for both Optus and Telstra (and providers using their networks), so I won’t be able to do that with any future car. Telstra is going on August 31, Optus is going in September. Your phone probably isn’t locked to 3G, but even if your phone supports 4G and/or 5G but does not support a technology called “VoLTE”, you may not be able to call emergency services after the 3G closure date. Both Telstra and Optus have provided an option to easily check if your phone is compatible after the closure. Using either Optus, Telstra, or other providers using their network, you can text 3 to the number 3498 and they will send you an automated message telling you whether your phone will be affected after the closure or not.
Cars are insanely expensive! Buying new is really a waste anyhow in my experience. I thought that the warranty could make it worth it, but it turns out that car companies are pretty slimy about warranty claims.
RF analog electronics can often be damaged if powered without the antenna load, and of those that won’t be damaged, many will be able to detect and fault for lack of antenna load.
So replacing the antenna with a dummy load will keep the system operating “normally” without risk of damage, but also without actually sending data.
So you’re saying that other electronics used within the car (ones that aren’t damaged by the lack of antenna) may be able to detect the lack of antenna as a “fault” and thus hinder their own functionality? Also, by “antenna”, are you referring to the one used for the radio? Like an Aerial? So my understanding is that giving the antenna connection a “dummy load” is a way of removing the antenna, and stopping the sending of data, without damaging or hindering any other electronics/components of the car.
The electronics that do the communicating could sense the lack of antenna as a fault, then indicate to other devices in the vehicle that fault. This could potentially cause the vehicle to light it’s fault indicator, among any number of other things.
And by antenna, yes it could be what you think of as an Aerial, but it likely won’t be the same one as for the radio (some antennas are multi purpose, but most are tuned to specific bands)
As others have said it will likely be an ESIM or similar solution because there isn’t a need for the manufacturer to support physical SIMs.
Regarding being tracked though, Australia has ANPR just like most other developed countries, you will be trackable even if your car was just a Flintstones car with a numberplate.
I’d also add if you’ve got a phone in your pocket, that’s just as trackable
That is not the problem, it’s the incredible invasion of privacy the cars have from the manufacturer not the state. Lookup Mozilla privacy report on cars for more information. It’s appalling.
This is more about the car maker harvesting data, rather than just tracking the car. Car makers have been (quietly) building more tech into their cars to collect data for the purposes of selling it to third parties. It’s effectively the enshittification of cars.
I’m interested in this topic as well. I know I’m being tracked on my phone, but I’m much more confident my phone manufacturer is not selling/giving my data to police or insurance companies. Those are who I’m concerned with tracking me.
Plus if you have a subscription to a mobile cellular network, as basically everyone with a phone does, that will also be constantly tracking you (and I believe also directly available to the police).
That’s all without going into whether you trust every single third party app on your phone and every website you visit.
You sort of left out a lot of context with that statistic that the article did include. Apple gets significantly fewer requests because the data they have is far less useful, that is generally a plus.
Cellular location data from the provider generally requires a warrant unless there are exigent circumstances. There has been a lot of controversy recently about warrants being granted that are too broad, the “every phone in this wide area” thing, but they are still warrants being granted by courts vs direct access.
That sort of “tell me every phone in the vicinity of this location” is the sort of request that Google typically has the data to fulfill and Apple generally does not (though the cell provider might).
With how big Australia is and how long the stretches are in which there are only things that want to kill and/or consume you how wise is it to do that? I’m not trolling, if I got jumped by a rowdy gang of drop crocs I’d rather people at least knew where to start looking for the pieces.
Good point but people have been driving to and from the outback long before the arrival of the connected car. Except the car, nothing else has changed much and it’s still possible to drive around with a “basic” car. Besides, there’s always the mobile phone if connectivity is required.
A good point, but if privacy is their key concern then I would imagine it would have to be a two step approach - rip out the SIM and radio, but also have a couple of plan B’s such as phones with location tracking (the irony isn’t lost on me), land-based EPIRB’s, or satphones or whatever’s needed.
I doubt any modern car with those features have a physical sim card you can remove. They are probably all using some sort of esim. On some cars the antennas can be unplugged but that depends on the specific model. If you’re unlucky, you will not even be able to remove the tracking features at all because they are integrated with other components needed to function.
With regards to the legality of that, I unfortunately cant help you there. Probably best to search for local cases or ask a local lawyer.
Your best option in probably buing a used car thats old enogh not to track you. Hope that helps a bit
I can’t speak to the legality, but if you own the vehicle 100%, I can’t see removing parts from the vehicle being illegal as long as they don’t impinge on road safety.
I would recommend removing more than just the SIM card, if the radios have their own fuse, take the fuse out, or physically remove the radios themselves.
Yep. It’s your car to do with it what you want. The ADRs (Australian Design Rules) only apply at point of sale. Once it’s yours, it merely needs meet roadworthy requirements. As long as you keep a functioning speedo, wipers and lights, you can rip out every bit of electronics in the car.
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the modem or mobile router in the car is what can be tracked by telcos via IMEI pings with or without an ESIM. telematics units can be disabled by pulling fuses and you should also call to opt out with most car manufacturers.
Tesla allow you to opt out of all connectivity
It means you would have no maps, no driver assist, no Internet radio
Anyway if you buy a car it is yours. The worst you can do is break the contact for whatever services are provided by the connectivity. You are allowed to modify a car however you like
Tesla don’t support CD. You’d need to rip those to mp3 and keep them on your phone to play over Bluetooth
I’m pretty sure that’s not the case. Like, even if we are not taking about adding a badly welded 4 wheel attachment without the use of a trailer hook, the car will have to go through technical inspection every few years.
If the inspectirs deem that a non-functional such system is a problem, you’ll not be driving your car anywhere.
If your modification makes it unroadworthy, you might not be allowed to drive it on public roads
If your modification changes its structure you may need certification that it is still roadworthy
I’m not seeing a case where you’re restricted by law from modifying the car
Software has special legal protections. You can stop it working with impunity, you can break it with impunity, you cannot legally defeat security on the software. Corey Doctorow calls the software protections “felony contempt of business model”
When you do finally drive, you’ll find that having a GPS and such is awesome.
If you’re paranoid to that extent, you’re better off getting an old car honestly. But trust me, nobody cares about tracking your car, and there are so many licence plate readers here in Australia you’re not really anonymous anyway
This is just the usual “nothing to hide” handwaving argument.
This data is not used by some theoretical policeman to laugh at how bad you drive, it is part of commercial datamining present in virtually all devices and services you use.
GPS and such? Great that I have a smartphone that I trust more, and have more control over, than this big blackbox with no access whatsoever.
I know how helpful GPS is. Also, I am not paranoid, and you shouldn’t be making those kinds of assumptions about anyone you don’t know. I simply want to minimize private data being open for abuse and am exploring what can and can’t be done, and their benefits and disadvantages. This after all, is the privacy community you’re talking in; where you share advice and knowledge about enhancing ones privacy, not telling them they are paranoid for pursuing it.
true, but totally irrelevant. Gps has nothing to do with sim cards
Cellular service has nothing to do with gps capabilities.
I think OP is referring to the whole “connected cars” thing, which isn’t the same as GPS. Many cars nowadays have mobile data capabilities on and are, unbeknownst to the owner, sending all sorts of information to the car makers.
This isn’t just governments and government contractors collecting data for road use and tolling. It’s for-profit companies harvesting consumer data for their own purpose. OP is right to be paranoid.
Get an old car instead?
that won’t work forever
It’ll work for longer than a new car… minus the tracking.
Research the fuses on the car. The smart systems or modem can most likely be disabled by removing power to them.
Or if the fuses apply to too broad of a system, the wireless modem should be able to be disconnected.
Manufacturers like to implement this capability using modules which can be used across their lines of vehicles. Here’s an example for a 2017 Silverado, but you’d want to research service manuals / diagrams for the vehicle you’re considering buying: https://www.silveradosierra.com/threads/2017-silverado-removed-lte-modem.660593/
Unfortunately, any mobile data component likely to be integrated with something more integral to the car, like the entire entertainment/climate control interface, or something equally difficult/impossible to drive without.
This site may help you pick a car without a full-time connection. https://vehicleprivacyreport.com/report/
It’s really counter productive that they require a vehicle identification number for a lookup…
Easy to take a phone to a used car lot and enter a few vins
Not as easy as being able to look it up with make and model name from the comfort of my own desk chair
If it doesn’t have a full-time connection, it’s still possible to have an eSim, right?
There are basically two classes of cars.
A “hard drive on wheels” which records events encase of an accident - a black box.
The other is a “smartphone on wheels”. These are the cars that have an eSim with a full-time internet connection.
You’d better be leaving your phone at home every time you drive that car or you’ve defeated the point
Airplane mode - callers can leave a message. VoIP - it’s connected via wifi or mobile data. I’m in Canada but the three times I checked where my IP says I am, it was in UK or NL. Of course there are alternative OSs for androids.
Also there’s many more settings on a phone to disable share your location for most uses vs on a car where it seems like your location goes straight to insurance companies.
Not necessarily true. Don’t let perfection be the enemy of good enough. Limiting the number of organizations that have your data is a good thing. There’s no reason the car vendor needs that data
Why would a car manufacturer give you cellular service for free? If you don’t pay for subscriptions, surely they’re not seeing any of your car’s data?
Consider the possibility that they are selling the data collected from you for a profit and using part of those profits to pay for the cellular service.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-02-09/toyota-car-brands-collecting-driver-data-privacy-concerns-laws/103443500
The telemetry from your car has value, plus if they control your infotainment system they can constantly try to upsell you to subscribe or buy other features.
Not to mention when we’re talking about on a car manufacturer, they can negotiate fleet-wide data access for all the vehicles. With an agreement with the manufacturer that if the user actually buys data access for themselves, they split the profit with the carrier
So new cars have always-on cellular connectivity regardless of subscriptions paid? That’s insane. The auto industry is a genuine menace.
Not all new cars. But some. Whenever you get a vehicle, it’s probably a good idea to buy one of those aftermarket service manuals sold to car mechanics for your make and model. Then you can verify radio repair etc etc and what circuits to take out etc
Besides if you’re trying to do information upsell, you don’t want your customer to have to go to a cell phone store and buy a SIM card and put it in the car. That’s extra friction they might change their mind. You want it to be always on and available, so they can just consent and get into the funnel
Good advice even when buying an older car. I wonder if there’s a shitlist for the manufacturers who have this crap pre-installed and always running?
If it’s a newer car, it’s unlikely that it will even have a physical sim and instead use esim.
Source: did work for a major automaker and talked to people on the teams involved
Find a car that isn’t supported for network features anymore is my primary suggestion. (Using the 3g network or before)
You can always physically disconnect/remove the cellular modem entirely.
Thanks, I didn’t know the eSims weren’t physical cards.
Btw, 3G network is shutting down extremely soon for both Optus and Telstra (and providers using their networks), so I won’t be able to do that with any future car. Telstra is going on August 31, Optus is going in September. Your phone probably isn’t locked to 3G, but even if your phone supports 4G and/or 5G but does not support a technology called “VoLTE”, you may not be able to call emergency services after the 3G closure date. Both Telstra and Optus have provided an option to easily check if your phone is compatible after the closure. Using either Optus, Telstra, or other providers using their network, you can text 3 to the number 3498 and they will send you an automated message telling you whether your phone will be affected after the closure or not.
https://www.optus.com.au/support/mobiles-tablets-wearables/important-changes-3g
https://www.telstra.com.au/support/mobiles-devices/3g-closure
I suggest using public transport since that is almost impossible to do
Confused American noises?
If you live somewhere like NYC, Chicago or San Francisco I don’t see the problem
Sure, as long as you never plan to leave the metro area.
Yeah that’s a downside. Uber/Carhaul I guess
I guess the manufacturer would void any warranty you have on the car, so there’that to be considered
I’m happy to take that to court. There are legal controls on what invalidates a warranty, including reasons that can’t be signed away in a contract.
Doing god’s work my mate!
Yes this is the real issue…
Better just buy used if you are going this route then.
I can’t find any place where they said they would be buying new.
I’m too poor for that 😂
Cars are insanely expensive! Buying new is really a waste anyhow in my experience. I thought that the warranty could make it worth it, but it turns out that car companies are pretty slimy about warranty claims.
Better would be to locate the antenna connection on the device that’s doing the communication, and replace the antenna with a dummy load.
This is the first I’ve heard of a dummy load. What exactly would be the purpose of replacing the antenna with a dummy load?
RF analog electronics can often be damaged if powered without the antenna load, and of those that won’t be damaged, many will be able to detect and fault for lack of antenna load.
So replacing the antenna with a dummy load will keep the system operating “normally” without risk of damage, but also without actually sending data.
So you’re saying that other electronics used within the car (ones that aren’t damaged by the lack of antenna) may be able to detect the lack of antenna as a “fault” and thus hinder their own functionality? Also, by “antenna”, are you referring to the one used for the radio? Like an Aerial? So my understanding is that giving the antenna connection a “dummy load” is a way of removing the antenna, and stopping the sending of data, without damaging or hindering any other electronics/components of the car.
Sort of.
The electronics that do the communicating could sense the lack of antenna as a fault, then indicate to other devices in the vehicle that fault. This could potentially cause the vehicle to light it’s fault indicator, among any number of other things.
And by antenna, yes it could be what you think of as an Aerial, but it likely won’t be the same one as for the radio (some antennas are multi purpose, but most are tuned to specific bands)
As others have said it will likely be an ESIM or similar solution because there isn’t a need for the manufacturer to support physical SIMs.
Regarding being tracked though, Australia has ANPR just like most other developed countries, you will be trackable even if your car was just a Flintstones car with a numberplate.
I’d also add if you’ve got a phone in your pocket, that’s just as trackable
That is not the problem, it’s the incredible invasion of privacy the cars have from the manufacturer not the state. Lookup Mozilla privacy report on cars for more information. It’s appalling.
This is more about the car maker harvesting data, rather than just tracking the car. Car makers have been (quietly) building more tech into their cars to collect data for the purposes of selling it to third parties. It’s effectively the enshittification of cars.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-02-09/toyota-car-brands-collecting-driver-data-privacy-concerns-laws/103443500
It’s not Toyota it’s all of them and Mozilla did a much better report
I’m interested in this topic as well. I know I’m being tracked on my phone, but I’m much more confident my phone manufacturer is not selling/giving my data to police or insurance companies. Those are who I’m concerned with tracking me.
Without a doubt they are absolutely doing this.
Apple is the manufacturer who makes the biggest hoo-ha over privacy, yet they gave user data to the police 90% of the time (Google was surprisingly lower at 80%)
Plus if you have a subscription to a mobile cellular network, as basically everyone with a phone does, that will also be constantly tracking you (and I believe also directly available to the police).
That’s all without going into whether you trust every single third party app on your phone and every website you visit.
You sort of left out a lot of context with that statistic that the article did include. Apple gets significantly fewer requests because the data they have is far less useful, that is generally a plus.
Cellular location data from the provider generally requires a warrant unless there are exigent circumstances. There has been a lot of controversy recently about warrants being granted that are too broad, the “every phone in this wide area” thing, but they are still warrants being granted by courts vs direct access.
That sort of “tell me every phone in the vicinity of this location” is the sort of request that Google typically has the data to fulfill and Apple generally does not (though the cell provider might).
It’s not just the phone manufacturer, but the mobile carrier, and apps with access to your location (like weather apps, or map apps)
With how big Australia is and how long the stretches are in which there are only things that want to kill and/or consume you how wise is it to do that? I’m not trolling, if I got jumped by a rowdy gang of drop crocs I’d rather people at least knew where to start looking for the pieces.
Good point but people have been driving to and from the outback long before the arrival of the connected car. Except the car, nothing else has changed much and it’s still possible to drive around with a “basic” car. Besides, there’s always the mobile phone if connectivity is required.
A better question is ‘how often will you drive these areas’
For most it’s never
A good point, but if privacy is their key concern then I would imagine it would have to be a two step approach - rip out the SIM and radio, but also have a couple of plan B’s such as phones with location tracking (the irony isn’t lost on me), land-based EPIRB’s, or satphones or whatever’s needed.
That, or invest in some drop-croc martial arts!
I doubt any modern car with those features have a physical sim card you can remove. They are probably all using some sort of esim. On some cars the antennas can be unplugged but that depends on the specific model. If you’re unlucky, you will not even be able to remove the tracking features at all because they are integrated with other components needed to function.
With regards to the legality of that, I unfortunately cant help you there. Probably best to search for local cases or ask a local lawyer.
Your best option in probably buing a used car thats old enogh not to track you. Hope that helps a bit
I can’t speak to the legality, but if you own the vehicle 100%, I can’t see removing parts from the vehicle being illegal as long as they don’t impinge on road safety.
I would recommend removing more than just the SIM card, if the radios have their own fuse, take the fuse out, or physically remove the radios themselves.
Yep. It’s your car to do with it what you want. The ADRs (Australian Design Rules) only apply at point of sale. Once it’s yours, it merely needs meet roadworthy requirements. As long as you keep a functioning speedo, wipers and lights, you can rip out every bit of electronics in the car.