Can’t you just check the network activity at the OS level to get an idea of which is more private? This can be done when evaluating browsers and other apps. For instance, Chrome and Edge are constantly sending data back to Google and MS. You don’t know specifically what is being sent but it is pretty obvious what is happening. You can see this in every application they make. Safari in comparison sends fairly little telemetry data back to Apple. There are other browsers that send no telemetry at all so those in theory should be the most private. And then you can look at how each company does business in general. Looking at ublock origin I can see the web is full of trackers from Google, MS, facebook, twitter, tiktok, etc, but I don’t see Apple trackers being blocked. Because those other companies are fundamentally in the business of spying and surveillance capitalism. The “products” they make are the means by which they do so. Apple OTOH is fundamentally in the business of selling devices and other hardware.
Whenever this topic comes up, I never see any hard evidence that Apple is profiling users and that ios/mac are not significantly more private than android/windows. Only a lot of “Apple is equally bad, just trust me bro” posts.
At a level that the user doesn’t have much control over, I fear both stock systems are about the same in terms of privacy.
According to an analysis by Köllnig et al. (2021) on 500k+ free Google Play/App Store apps, tracker libraries such as Google Play Services/Apple’s SKAdNetwork/cross-platform libraries are used in about equal percentages on both app stores’ free apps. These free apps’ trackers are generally not configured to follow GDPR data-minimization practices, even for kids’ apps, but it’s to be noted that Android has a disadvantage in that advertising ID is more used in Android apps than Apple apps. However, Apple has disadvantage too: the researchers noted that Android’s intent system and different permission model makes apps seem “more privileged” than Apple’s, but Apple makes accurate analysis of their apps’ reach difficult, judging by the larger failure rate in app decompilation as well as the more opaque approach to permission disclosure. Although the paper might imply Apple has improved over time, since it mentions Apple’s implementation of opt-in tracking in 2021, after the study, as a limitation, keep in mind Apple’s new movement towards advertising as a form of revenue, as discussed by Apple Insider (Owen, 2022) and Bloomberg (Gurman, 2022).
Of course, Köllnig’s study only reflects tracking in “curated apps” for either platform. It does not discuss hardware/firmware/system app-level privacy, which users have little control over (Leith, 2021 – easier reading with TomsGuide). Leith found that either OS phones home (lol) every ~4.5 minutes, and even though Google may send more data (even from the clock app!), Apple profiles your social network via MAC addresses on your Wi-Fi as well as location geotagging, which the TomsGuide article called “quality vs. quantity”. This builds on the idea that Apple might seem more private, but only ostensibly so, judging by these more particular looks at their data collection and the trend of their increasingly data-focused business model.
Does that mean the choices between stock OS don’t matter? Well, no – as for me, who can’t afford a Pixel anytime soon, I’ve chosen Android on account of freedom outside of curated app stores. Yes, PrivacyGuides may not recommend F-Droid, but the opportunity cost in security there may be negligible compared to the convenient and easily-handled privacy received in exchange*, at least for typical less-savvy threat models like my own. (This favorability is illustrated in a forum debate here (Lukas, 2023), though in a context less relevant to stock OS comparisons.) Ignoring the facet of freedom with stock Android, the possibility of large privacy advantage one way or the other, strictly in terms of stock Android and stock iOS operating systems, is marginal if it even exists.
My question regarding stuff like this is how do they know ? iOS is totally closed source. Even if Androidf isn’t perfect it has some open parts to it. Also you can use a DeGoogled OS which you have zero options for something similar on iOS. No closed source OS should be considered private or secure in my books.
Actually they all the same. Best thing you could do is self hosting like nextcloud and talk or matrix, use searx, pihole dns etc… to have your data on your server other than that all companies are the same in terms of privacy
Ah, i bet i am thinking security then. I know Graphene hardens some things, changes the NTP timeserver, changes the ConnectivityCheck, and i think the CaptivePortal too. It also allows you to lock the bootloader again to prevent evil msid attacks.
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Can’t you just check the network activity at the OS level to get an idea of which is more private? This can be done when evaluating browsers and other apps. For instance, Chrome and Edge are constantly sending data back to Google and MS. You don’t know specifically what is being sent but it is pretty obvious what is happening. You can see this in every application they make. Safari in comparison sends fairly little telemetry data back to Apple. There are other browsers that send no telemetry at all so those in theory should be the most private. And then you can look at how each company does business in general. Looking at ublock origin I can see the web is full of trackers from Google, MS, facebook, twitter, tiktok, etc, but I don’t see Apple trackers being blocked. Because those other companies are fundamentally in the business of spying and surveillance capitalism. The “products” they make are the means by which they do so. Apple OTOH is fundamentally in the business of selling devices and other hardware.
Whenever this topic comes up, I never see any hard evidence that Apple is profiling users and that ios/mac are not significantly more private than android/windows. Only a lot of “Apple is equally bad, just trust me bro” posts.
iOS is more private in the sense that they limit access to your data to other companies so they can continue be the doorman.
You’re seriously gonna believe a “trust me bro” from big tech?
At a level that the user doesn’t have much control over, I fear both stock systems are about the same in terms of privacy.
According to an analysis by Köllnig et al. (2021) on 500k+ free Google Play/App Store apps, tracker libraries such as Google Play Services/Apple’s SKAdNetwork/cross-platform libraries are used in about equal percentages on both app stores’ free apps. These free apps’ trackers are generally not configured to follow GDPR data-minimization practices, even for kids’ apps, but it’s to be noted that Android has a disadvantage in that advertising ID is more used in Android apps than Apple apps. However, Apple has disadvantage too: the researchers noted that Android’s intent system and different permission model makes apps seem “more privileged” than Apple’s, but Apple makes accurate analysis of their apps’ reach difficult, judging by the larger failure rate in app decompilation as well as the more opaque approach to permission disclosure. Although the paper might imply Apple has improved over time, since it mentions Apple’s implementation of opt-in tracking in 2021, after the study, as a limitation, keep in mind Apple’s new movement towards advertising as a form of revenue, as discussed by Apple Insider (Owen, 2022) and Bloomberg (Gurman, 2022).
Of course, Köllnig’s study only reflects tracking in “curated apps” for either platform. It does not discuss hardware/firmware/system app-level privacy, which users have little control over (Leith, 2021 – easier reading with TomsGuide). Leith found that either OS phones home (lol) every ~4.5 minutes, and even though Google may send more data (even from the clock app!), Apple profiles your social network via MAC addresses on your Wi-Fi as well as location geotagging, which the TomsGuide article called “quality vs. quantity”. This builds on the idea that Apple might seem more private, but only ostensibly so, judging by these more particular looks at their data collection and the trend of their increasingly data-focused business model.
Does that mean the choices between stock OS don’t matter? Well, no – as for me, who can’t afford a Pixel anytime soon, I’ve chosen Android on account of freedom outside of curated app stores. Yes, PrivacyGuides may not recommend F-Droid, but the opportunity cost in security there may be negligible compared to the convenient and easily-handled privacy received in exchange*, at least for typical less-savvy threat models like my own. (This favorability is illustrated in a forum debate here (Lukas, 2023), though in a context less relevant to stock OS comparisons.) Ignoring the facet of freedom with stock Android, the possibility of large privacy advantage one way or the other, strictly in terms of stock Android and stock iOS operating systems, is marginal if it even exists.
My question regarding stuff like this is how do they know ? iOS is totally closed source. Even if Androidf isn’t perfect it has some open parts to it. Also you can use a DeGoogled OS which you have zero options for something similar on iOS. No closed source OS should be considered private or secure in my books.
Good answer. Can recommend GrapheneOS for a solid, minimalistic de-googled AOSP.
Actually they all the same. Best thing you could do is self hosting like nextcloud and talk or matrix, use searx, pihole dns etc… to have your data on your server other than that all companies are the same in terms of privacy
What does self hosting have to do with smartphone OSs? It seems to me that OP is talking about OSs, not the services Apple and Google offers.
Yes. From worst to best would be
I can’t disagree with this. I myself use unlocked xiaomi phones installed with custom roms and microG.
For privacy I dont think there is much difference between AOSP based rom and Graphene.
Graphene is AOSP-based
Ah, i bet i am thinking security then. I know Graphene hardens some things, changes the NTP timeserver, changes the ConnectivityCheck, and i think the CaptivePortal too. It also allows you to lock the bootloader again to prevent evil msid attacks.
doesn’t sell to third parties, means that they only sell it to the first party
apple, google, microsoft and any other companies are all the same
While Apple isn’t exactly the best model for privacy, it is more private than stock android, which is what OP is asking.
I get what you’re saying and also encourage skepticism, but in this case the first and second parties are you and Apple.