From XMPP.org, a couple of choice extension specifications:
XEP-0161: Abuse Reporting
Abstract: This document specifies an XMPP protocol extension for reporting abusive XMPP stanzas. Status: Deferred
WARNING: This document has been automatically Deferred after 12 months of inactivity in its previous Experimental state.
Superseded By: XEP-0268
XEP-0268: Incident Handling
Status: Deferred
WARNING: This document has been automatically Deferred after 12 months of inactivity in its previous Experimental state. Last Updated: 2012-05-29
Internet communication is not a simple thing, I greatly respect the need for standards to be defined and measured. And these specification documents provide really good guidance on considerations. But it is not feasible to find wide-spread success if there isn’t even basic consensus on how to report spam after a hiatus of 10 years on v0.6 of a spec. There is a whole lot of process involved for a protocol that has very little decided.
What is the story with XMPP anyway. For a while, maybe 10 or more years ago it looked like the thing. Then it kind of imploded. Do people actually use it?
I know FSF may still have a server. DuckDuckGo did for a while. Maybe still does.
Biggest issues I ever had with it were firewall traversal. Most servers did not offer tls 443 at the time. The video chat extension was not wide spread either. Good public servers were sometimes hard to find too plus there was some spam.
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It still exists; it’s fine - for all intents and purposes. It fizzled out because most of the features people wanted were optional extensions to the protocol, so you wouldn’t have every feature with every client/server.
Say what you want about Matrix, having one company pushing it with a core API and user-facing application that is “good enough” (I’m not a fan of Element myself, but it does the trick for normal people looking to sign up) makes it easier to adopt.
Case in point, check out the software page of the XMPP.org website. For each piece of software there’s a small dropdown showing you how compliant it is with each standard. That kind of decision making - beyond just “which one looks/feels the nicest” - is kind of what’s been holding XMPP back all these years. (in my opinion)
This video: “Matrix really bad, xmpp really good. Trust me bro.”
Probably one of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever had to watch - regardless of the arguments being made. Also, the narrator sounds like a broken TikTok AI voice.
Just some responses:
you don’t have to use matrix.org, there are other sites you can sign up for (and thus avoid Google captcha)
you don’t have to use element, there are other clients (including element forks, if you want some of its beta features)
You can use ntfy and host your own push notifications - but for instant notifications on Android you’ll always need GMS as Android won’t allow an alternative. (and, no, I’d rather not root my phone, thanks)
re: xmpp is easier to setup: first pick a server, then deploy it, then pick a client. Just like Matrix. Almost like they’re both very similar.
re: synapse being hard to run: a $5 a month Hetzner box is enough for it.
re: dendrite not having enough features: it hasn’t been released yet and is still under development? The fuck are you smoking over there?
re: matrix requires an email to sign up: it does not, only the server you’ve arbitrarily chosen to focus on does
So much trash in this video, it’s crazy.
If you like XMPP, use it. If you like Matrix, use it.
Edit: I also like how the video author ignores all other matrix clients, but then pretends like XMPP has one client (unnamed, of course) that handles all of Element’s short comings.
Seriously, if you like XMPP so much, just go use it. Why make such a bizarre post?
Edit 2: Most of the links on your website are broken - giving an Nginx 502 error - so I wasn’t able to figure out what you’re trying to sell us. Maybe instead of making videos like this you can go and learn how to deploy Nginx properly?
Thanks for enumerating the counter points. I’m immediately turned off by his vocal style, but I can look past that long enough to evaluate the content.
I have two big issues with it:
His assertions lack references to supporting evidence
his political allegiance gives me pause
I will check out his content more before I write him off.
It appears the android client he used is Cheogram, which I use. It is forked from Conversations, and is excellent. JMP.CHAT maintains it, and pretty much supports all of the xmpp standards. Including gateways to phone PBX, SMS, and Matrix.
They and sopranica offer fully compliant servers, including self hosting.
You can’t join group chats of any decent size on Synapse. Put your money where your mouth is, how much you want to bet that you can’t setup synapse on a $5 hetzner and join the official Matrix.org group chat?
idk about the rest but the $5 Hetzner box running Synapse is inaccurate. While you can definitely run either Prosody or Synapse in the same box, Prosody consumes much less resources, which means that if, for example, a $5 box can run a 500 users Prosody (XMPP) server, that same box running Synapse could allocate only around 100 users
(not actual numbers, I haven’t done any real benchmark other than installing both of them in my Raspberry Pi, mess around with both and test how Prosody’s resources consumption is much lower, both on “idle” and when receiving traffic)
Sorry, I meant for personal use. It’s absolutely okay for a synapse server running 1~5 users connecting to large rooms and using multiple Appservices for bridging in other networks.
Source: Been doing that for 3+ years.
If you’re looking for something for 500 users, I wouldn’t recommend a $5 VPS.
I get your point and your use case, but I like to look further in the viability of the network.
yeah of course, a $5 box can’t host 500 users, they weren’t actual numbers. But in my tests on limited hardware, Synapse consumed almost twice as much RAM and CPU for (barely) the same usage. So I’d imagine that when scaling things up a large XMPP server can be run with much less hardware than a similarly sized Matrix server.
This is quite relevant for the longevity of the network. Cheaper hosting means more people can afford to voluntarily run servers and also less amount of donations can cover the costs.
You’re not wrong, but if we’re talking about the longevity of the network then I’d recommend looking at non-synapse servers. Synapse is designed to scale horizontally, not vertically.
If you want something with more bang for your buck, with the potential for vertical scaling for small to medium size deployments, then Dendrite and Conduit are more viable alternatives.
@SummerBreeze I am not on Matrix.org (despite the fact I don’t know whether I have completed any captcha or not).
But yea, on XMPP the gold standard is pretty much OMEMO these days. And the fact that both Google and Facebook adopted it at some point in time tells a lot about how mature the project is.
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From XMPP.org, a couple of choice extension specifications:
Internet communication is not a simple thing, I greatly respect the need for standards to be defined and measured. And these specification documents provide really good guidance on considerations. But it is not feasible to find wide-spread success if there isn’t even basic consensus on how to report spam after a hiatus of 10 years on v0.6 of a spec. There is a whole lot of process involved for a protocol that has very little decided.
OMEMO is fantastic! Doesn’t Matrix log history?
Xmpp servers can be configured to log history. I don’t know if Matrix always logs history, but I’ve read that it keeps a lot of metadata.
What is the story with XMPP anyway. For a while, maybe 10 or more years ago it looked like the thing. Then it kind of imploded. Do people actually use it?
I know FSF may still have a server. DuckDuckGo did for a while. Maybe still does.
Biggest issues I ever had with it were firewall traversal. Most servers did not offer tls 443 at the time. The video chat extension was not wide spread either. Good public servers were sometimes hard to find too plus there was some spam.
Check out https://lemmy.ml/c/sopranica for full featured XMPP implementations.
Hi there! Looks like you linked to a Lemmy community using a URL instead of its name, which doesn’t work well for people on different instances. Try fixing it like this: !sopranica@lemmy.ml
It still exists; it’s fine - for all intents and purposes. It fizzled out because most of the features people wanted were optional extensions to the protocol, so you wouldn’t have every feature with every client/server.
Say what you want about Matrix, having one company pushing it with a core API and user-facing application that is “good enough” (I’m not a fan of Element myself, but it does the trick for normal people looking to sign up) makes it easier to adopt.
Case in point, check out the software page of the XMPP.org website. For each piece of software there’s a small dropdown showing you how compliant it is with each standard. That kind of decision making - beyond just “which one looks/feels the nicest” - is kind of what’s been holding XMPP back all these years. (in my opinion)
Shame, too, as XMPP has always been pretty great.
Thanks. Yes it had a lot of potential. Was always confusing too… what client… what server… what should work.
Goddam that dude’s voice is annoying. Excellent points though, I’m going to investigate xmpp
This video: “Matrix really bad, xmpp really good. Trust me bro.”
Probably one of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever had to watch - regardless of the arguments being made. Also, the narrator sounds like a broken TikTok AI voice.
Just some responses:
So much trash in this video, it’s crazy.
If you like XMPP, use it. If you like Matrix, use it.
Edit: I also like how the video author ignores all other matrix clients, but then pretends like XMPP has one client (unnamed, of course) that handles all of Element’s short comings.
Seriously, if you like XMPP so much, just go use it. Why make such a bizarre post?
Edit 2: Most of the links on your website are broken - giving an Nginx 502 error - so I wasn’t able to figure out what you’re trying to sell us. Maybe instead of making videos like this you can go and learn how to deploy Nginx properly?
Thanks for enumerating the counter points. I’m immediately turned off by his vocal style, but I can look past that long enough to evaluate the content.
I have two big issues with it:
I will check out his content more before I write him off.
It appears the android client he used is Cheogram, which I use. It is forked from Conversations, and is excellent. JMP.CHAT maintains it, and pretty much supports all of the xmpp standards. Including gateways to phone PBX, SMS, and Matrix.
They and sopranica offer fully compliant servers, including self hosting.
You can’t join group chats of any decent size on Synapse. Put your money where your mouth is, how much you want to bet that you can’t setup synapse on a $5 hetzner and join the official Matrix.org group chat?
Yep, I’ve got 4gb of RAM and 2 vCPUs and am in Synapse Admins with 10.9k users. Sooo… Yeah?
Again, though, if you want to use XMPP just use it - stop lying to people to get them into your camp.
It’s not a fucking soccer team.
idk about the rest but the $5 Hetzner box running Synapse is inaccurate. While you can definitely run either Prosody or Synapse in the same box, Prosody consumes much less resources, which means that if, for example, a $5 box can run a 500 users Prosody (XMPP) server, that same box running Synapse could allocate only around 100 users
(not actual numbers, I haven’t done any real benchmark other than installing both of them in my Raspberry Pi, mess around with both and test how Prosody’s resources consumption is much lower, both on “idle” and when receiving traffic)
try conduit if you want a HS thats alot more optimized and runs well without a ton of resources
Sorry, I meant for personal use. It’s absolutely okay for a synapse server running 1~5 users connecting to large rooms and using multiple Appservices for bridging in other networks.
Source: Been doing that for 3+ years.
If you’re looking for something for 500 users, I wouldn’t recommend a $5 VPS.
I get your point and your use case, but I like to look further in the viability of the network.
yeah of course, a $5 box can’t host 500 users, they weren’t actual numbers. But in my tests on limited hardware, Synapse consumed almost twice as much RAM and CPU for (barely) the same usage. So I’d imagine that when scaling things up a large XMPP server can be run with much less hardware than a similarly sized Matrix server.
This is quite relevant for the longevity of the network. Cheaper hosting means more people can afford to voluntarily run servers and also less amount of donations can cover the costs.
You’re not wrong, but if we’re talking about the longevity of the network then I’d recommend looking at non-synapse servers. Synapse is designed to scale horizontally, not vertically.
If you want something with more bang for your buck, with the potential for vertical scaling for small to medium size deployments, then Dendrite and Conduit are more viable alternatives.
Costs so much to self host?
What a joke.
@SummerBreeze I am not on Matrix.org (despite the fact I don’t know whether I have completed any captcha or not).
But yea, on XMPP the gold standard is pretty much OMEMO these days. And the fact that both Google and Facebook adopted it at some point in time tells a lot about how mature the project is.